American Elections of 2008

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seashell65	American Elections of 2008		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1300 03/19/08 23:58 Political reporter USA	Tags : None Okay, we've had these discussions before, but now as things get even uglier, and the whole race issue has come to a head, I wonder about how this is seen in other countries as well as within the US. Obama has come under fire because of remarks by his pastor. Very hate filled remarks, no matter how you look at it. Do we call Obama to task for the remarks of his pastor? Do we hold all Catholics up for the actions of a few pedophiliac priests, and those who covered up for them? Do we condemn all Southern Baptists for the remarks and actions of a portion of them? I just wonder. Yes, he should distance himself from the remarks, and if he doesn't hold them to be true, then make sure that is out there. But are any of us responsible for the remarks of those near us. Well, I should amend that and say, "all the remarks of our peers and mentors". Some of these things have become petty. Such as when Ferrarro was taken to task for making her comment that he probably wouldn't be were his is at THIS moment if it weren't for his race. Especially if taken out of context of the whole speech. Hearing her explain it, I understood where she was coming from, cause I think the same could be said for Clinton as well, she probably wouldn't still be hanging on if she weren't the woman candidate. It's the novelty of the idea that has soooooo many people enthralled and going to the polls. It has been a looooooonnnnnnnggggg time since we've turned out to vote as we have this year. I personally am tired of hearing people (not just the right wingers) blast Barack Obama because of his name, his heritage and his race. If you want to take issue with him, take it with his policies and his voting record. Same for Hilary Clinton. But to brand him in the same lot with terrorists because his middle name is Hussein? Give me a break. My birth name was Robin Wood, so close to Robin Hood. Am I to be associated with a legendary "thief"? Come on! And as for the race thing, has everybody lost their mind and forgotten that his mother was white, his father black, and has a multitude of ethnic backgrounds due to his mixed parentage? I'm lost. Really. We are supposed to be in the 21st century, in the "Land of the Free", and we behave worse than children. Cause truly, children just are brutally honest, and once they get over the initial physical differences, they could care less about it anymore. We, as adults, however, seem to hold on to behaviour and opinions like rabid dogs. Call me naive, but I just knew that when "I grew up" that some of this idiocy would dissipate and common sense would prevail. Not! I don't get it. For "educated" people, we sure do act dumb.
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kiturah		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7034 03/20/08 14:17 Medical Consultant California US	I'm American, so you didn't ask for my view. For a view from an American newspaper that does not agree with your summation of Rev. Wright, see http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_8635235?source=rss_viewed your friend,
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seashell65		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1300 03/20/08 15:01 Political reporter USA	Ah, Kit, wasn't excluding Americans, just wondered how we "played" in other places. And as for Rev. Wright, whether I agree or disagree with what he himself spoke, which may be true of some cases, but by far not the majority, wasn't the issue. I have received sooo many emails denouncing Barack Obama and vilifying (sp) him only on the basis of his name, ethnicity and his father's faith. Not on his issues, but just on superficial things. The problem for me is that for a country that is supposed to be based on equality and freedom of religion and such, that even the mention of something so petty has such weight in today's world is astounding to me. (Sorry, started to lose my train of thought there). I went to eat with my aunt's Sunday school class on Monday, and overheard several of them vehemently stating that the would never vote for him, they would cross party lines and vote for McCain (they being life-long democrats) rather than vote for him. And as one of these ladies is the one who would consistently send me these inflammatory emails, I knew it was on the basis of race and supposed (wrongly) religion. These women are "good" christian women. For these words and such antipathy to come from them is just astounding to me. And it is influencing my aunt's opinion too, and she was the most open-minded, loving, truly good woman I've ever known. With this group, I don't know if it is age, and not wanting to concede that it is time to accept that ANYONE can lead, not just someone who walks and talks like them. I really was just trying to get a handle on why this stuff is circulate amongst people who really should know better. I'm not talking of those who propound racial, mysogonistic (sp), and other antagonistic rhetoric and actions, but those who are educated, who have common sense in their thinking. (okay, losing my train of thought again, sorry) Do I know that racism is still present today, you betchya. But it isn't just directed towards one group, and for it to be focused on just the dynamics between white and black is too narrow-minded even for those who are part of the two groups. Do we have far to go, yep. But unfortunately, I think we have further to go today than we did 30 years ago. At least in my recollection (which may be wrong). 30 years ago, we were trying, today it seems we are more prone to rip each other apart. I was just trying to get some input if other's felt similar, if we seem to have taken 2 step back for that one forward.
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InAlabama		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3715 03/20/08 16:35 Kudzu USA	I really was just trying to get a handle on why this stuff is circulate amongst people who really should know better. I have wondered the same thing myself. I got one of those "Obama is a Muslim" emails from a friend who, I am almost certain, has never uttered a racist word in her life. I am not surprised when I get those things from people who are have yet to evolve into the late twentieth century. But when I got it from this woman, I was shocked. Like you, I don't understand what is going on. It frightens me for what this country may face in the next four years.
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Sunshine56		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 41919 03/20/08 16:50 Mosken ezOP Board Owner Norway	I think few members outside America would want to comment on this from several reasons. I just asked my husband and not even he had understood what this was about. Me neither, until I found a Norwegian article about it. Most of us non-Americans are not that informed about details in the American election. Another reason, few would like to comment because we don't want to say anything that would offend American members. In general I think few Europeans would understand what religion and sex have to do with politics. We are just watching the American media keep talking about it and we just shake our heads and stop listening. This is such a different election campaign than me would ever have in our country. I remember when the US was about to invade Iraq, I joined a political board, because I didn't dare talk about it at friends! I was so afraid of saying my opinion at my own board. And of course, in principle, maybe I should be neutral? As a boardowner? Please tell me. :-) Anyway, if any Norwegian would like to read about what Michelle posted, here is a Norwegian article: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/03/15/529840.html
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fogggyrl		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 182 03/20/08 17:34 USA	seashell65 wrote: Call me naive, but I just knew that when "I grew up" that some of this idiocy would dissipate and common sense would prevail. Not! I don't get it. For "educated" people, we sure do act dumb. I completely agree! And Sunshine, your opinions won't offend me and I'm from the US; they couldn't unless they were filled with hate, and I don't see you being like that. I'm interested in knowing what people think especially folks from Europe. Do you all just look at us and shake and your heads? I would imagine so! And that thought makes sense to me and I do not find it to be offensive, nor personal. When are we going to judge people by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin? Why would we judge someone because of what another person in their life says? "The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind... the answer is blowing in the wind." I wanted Mike Gravel for President but since it seems he's not even in the running now, I'm an Obama supporter. That's based on his politics. Which to me, is what voting for a President should be about. Find out who you would vote for here: http://www.votechooser.com/ The neat thing about this site is that it shows what the candidates are thinking on each issue. Click on DETAILS to see. You know, they should be allowed to change their minds on issues when they have more info too. I might be one of the only people who believes that. When I took it and got Obama 7 out of 10, I was surprised because I had thought I was more aligned with Clinton but I'm not. My mom took it and she thought it was rigged because hers came up Obama too. I thought it might be rigged as well, so I took it again and answered everything opposite from what I really feel and it came up McCain. I do predict though that McCain will be our next President. fogggyrl PS. How come my link's not clickable? PSS. Mosken, I just reread your post and realized that you said you and your hubby do shake your heads. I appreciate your honesty. A lot of us Americans are shaking our heads too. Last Edited By: fogggyrl 03/20/08 18:06. Edited 3 times.
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ponolops		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1430 03/20/08 17:40 Quasimodo England	Mosken, as long as you didn't post a political or religious rant on the board, I would certainly not mind; in fact I believe it would be a great thread to open. So don't hold back on my account. We can all be friends and agree to disagree! Penny
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InAlabama		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3715 03/20/08 19:04 Kudzu USA	Mosken, I am very interested in what Europeans (and others) think of our politics. I belong to a couple of political forums mainly because I like to see what others are saying. But they tend to attract those who enjoy a good fight and I sometimes wonder if they truly reflect what the average person actually thinks.
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kiturah		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7034 03/20/08 19:35 Medical Consultant California US	JMHO: We all ought to be interested in what others think - feedback is important in understanding ourselves. I personally find you more real live people when you do express opinions. I can't imagine everyone sharing mine. But if we refuse to talk about them we have nothing to educate each other with. I'm saying this poorly, but it seems clear to me that to not talk when you have something to say is a loss to all. In a board that highlights acceptance, surely that means the board owner doesn't need to bite her tongue. your friend,
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seashell65		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1300 03/20/08 21:43 Political reporter USA	I'm the same, as long as someone isn't shouting out racist and bigoted viewpoints, I like good discussions. I remember Moody talking about the govt. in Belgium, and how divided they were in her country... if she hadn't, I wouldn't have known anything about it. Not one mention of it on our news reports. Which really is kinda weird. But, Mosken, I'm like you and your husband, I can't figure out why it is such and issue, unless the candidate him/herself makes an issue of it on their own. I was at Beliefnet.com the other day and they have a whole section of the papers of our founding fathers. Letters, documents, etc. of their viewpoints on religion and the country. Very interesting read... kinda flipped me out that Jefferson cut up the bible to make his own cause he thought Christianity had become so corrupt. And boy did he get it down to just the bare bones. And reading John Adams and Abigail Adams letters, Benjamin Franklin's letters (his to an atheist are really interesting) and so on, even George Washington (there is a letter of his to Benedict Arnold). You see that they really had a different take on things than we do. Very interesting reads. HBO has a series currently on John Adams, and he seems very very interesting. Never gave him a moments thought before. I was going to record it, but that channel is going to go bye bye for me at the end of the month (special ending), and it is a 7 week program, I'll wait for the DVD to come out and buy it.
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Sunshine56		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 41919 03/20/08 22:37 Mosken ezOP Board Owner Norway	surely that means the board owner doesn't need to bite her tongue. That is too funny!
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amberlover13		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 20173 03/20/08 23:26 Moderator USA	OK, ain't going to hold my tounge on this one....I for one, as a wiccan and totally non-christian, am sick and tired of religion (mostly right winged christians) holding sway in politics and the running of our country and daily life. PERIOD! There is suppose to be a separation of church and state....and according to our constitution, there is no place for religious beliefs in our government. Yet it is so well known that religious groups have such great influence in our government and the running of affairs that it makes me want to vomit! Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing any particular religion...but religion is a personal thing, and if folks want to believe in it, than that is their choice; and their right, but it's influence is being forced down the throats of Americans....and many of us that do not agree are afraid to speak out because religious groups hold such great political power these days. I will also defend anyone's right to have their own religious beliefs...and i don't feel that religion is a bad thing. It belongs in your heart, not the government. Political candidates are using their religious beliefs as a way to get votes, or convince you that their opponents should not be elected. And that is just plain wrong. Any politician that tries to influence my vote by forcing their religious views on me will certianly not get my vote. Of course the NON-SEPARATION of church and state has deep roots.....on our money is printed "In God we trust", courts still swear people in making them place their hand on a bible, our pledge of allegance states "one nation under God" and George Bush ends almost every speach with "God bless America" Pretty presumptious for a country founded on the principle of separation of chruch and state. WHO SAYS THERE EVEN IS A GOD? And why is the presumption that there is one still being forced on the American people? That is what we should be asking ourselves....not whether or not Obama is a muslim! The fact that Obama's possible religion is being used as a scare tactic to keep him from getting elected is a shame....The fact that religious belief has ANY influence on our government is a shame. And voting against someone because of their heritage is also a shame. But I am only one person....unfortunately, race and religion do play a huge part in any election, and i am afraid it will for many years to come. And Shell, if Thomas Jefferson had torn up a bible in todays political climate, he'd be lucky to even have a job, let alone a political career. Don't know if i will vote for Obama or not....i really haven't paid enough attention to his positions, history, and goals for this country. I am still deciding.... This election process will only get dirtier, because people are so dissatisified with our current administration....and it is very important who will next govern the country, so the stakes are high. And when the stakes are high, it always seems that every little thing or comment is blown out of proportion. As far as Mosken speaking her views on american politics here in the forum goes, I do understand why she doesn't want to offend anyone....hell, many americans are afraid these days to speak their mind for fear of offending others. I can't remember a time in my life when this country was so divided politically....and people have extremely strong views on things like the war in iraq (either for or against) Arguments start quickly when discussing politics, not as much now as it was when Bush invaded Iraq, but it is still a very sensitive subject. In fact i have one friend here in the US that we disagree so much on political views that in order to remain friends we have to just not talk about some things....like Iraq. Knowing the background and beliefs of many of our members, it would be impossible to discuss certian things without offending someone, so sometimes it is just better to avoid some discussions...Sort of like debating religion: beliefs are so strong, that no amount of debating will really change another persons belief....but it is a sure way to get folks upset. Yes i do have these sort of discussions only with a few friends that are extremely open-minded, and not easly offended, but discussing these things on the open board is another matter altogether. Anyway, just my 2 cents worth, hugs for all, Virginia
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Sunshine56		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 41919 03/21/08 08:24 Mosken ezOP Board Owner Norway	I didn't understand the issues about this pastor to have anything to do with their religion, Virginia. I thought it was what he said about America that was so outreaches? he criticized the American foreign politics. That has nothing to do with religion. And you being a wiccan, does not make you less religious. From what I read in the Norwegian article, I have been thinking some of the same things as this pastor. Probably not all of it, also the Norwegian article may not have said it all. I think I have said it before. But I deeply disagree in the American foreign policy. It doesn't mean I'm not grateful that the Americans came here after the second world war to help us. I am. And I remember my mom telling me how fantastic it was and she had an American flag from that day, which now I have in my house. I don't think it matters whether some people would vote for Obama because he is black or Hillary Clinton because she is a woman. Because, if Obama or Clinton had been terrible candidates, it would not have helped them what ever skin color or gender they are. So to criticize people for letting that influence the choice, is in my opinion a sidetrack. I think they are great people both of them. I'm sure they both can be a great president. I know more about Hillary Clinton and as I've said before, I'm totally in love with her! So we have to excuse me. LOL I would like to mention something that really shocked me. I read an article about Ku Klux Klan: "KENTUCKY - USA - Imperial Wizard, Ronald Edwards has stated that, "anything is better than Hillary Clinton." White Christian Supremacist group the Ku Klux Klan has endorsed Barack Obama to be the next President of the United States of America. Speaking from his Kentucky office in Dawson Springs, the Imperial Wizard exclaimed that anything or anyone is better than having that "crazy +** $!$$%" as President. http://www.dailysquib.co.uk/?c=117&a=1227
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shadeaux63		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2592 03/21/08 10:30 USA	I read that same article, Mosken, about the Imperial Wizard. It made me laugh. But the one that made me almost fall out of my chair was when Ann Coulter( extremist right-wing loud-mouth)said that if McCain got the Republican nomination, she would switch to Democrat and vote for Hillary. No matter how you look at it, right now, Americans are deeply devided- more so than I think they've ever been.And the biggest cause has been allowing religion to sway thier thinking when it comes to politics. I am too young to remember, personally, but I remember my grandmother and mother having conversations about how a lot of people were afraid to vote for Kennedy, because he was Catholic.They were scared to death that he would allow his religion to sway his opinions and decisions.And even though he was definitely NOT the saint many would have the world believe, all in all, he was a pretty good president for his time.And he kept his word- that he would follow the will of the American people, and not what his religion said was the thing to do. But now, it seems like unless you are willing to swear your loyalty to the Christian Right, you aren't good enough for most people to even consider voting for.I think it's about time we got back to believing that where a politician spends his/her Sunday mornings has nothing at all to do with what kind of leader they are, or will be.If we(and I mean Americans, collectively)were as concerned about the REAL issues as we are about what faith a person follows, this country wouldn't be in nearly as big a mess as it is.
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Sunshine56		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 41919 03/21/08 10:47 Mosken ezOP Board Owner Norway	It did not make me laugh! :-) Do you think it matters whether this guy is a pastor or not? I thought it was what he said that made people upset. I mean why should we not listen to him just because he is a pastor? Isn't that discriminating? I really don't think it is that strange that people turn to religion in wartime. If that is what they do. You guys have been at war for five years now and you have financial crisis upon you. I don't find it wrong to turn to religion in time of crisis no matter what kind of religion you have. Also I would find it natural that a politician is indirectly influenced by his religion.
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fogggyrl		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 182 03/21/08 13:26 USA	This is a good discussion and I like hearing everyone's views. I wish more people could be this rational. Seashell- that is very interesting history! I love the Jefforson story. That's really something. I went to Belief.net but couldn't find these stories. Could be my brainfog. Perhaps you can tell me how to find them there. Virginia, I understand your feelings about the Neo-con Religious Right. I feel similarly. This country is based on separation of Church and State with the reality being that Christians are the majority. I think most people accepted this but there's this new Christianity that's threatening everybody who's not one of them including other Christians. It's scary. Has anybody here seen the documentary, JESUS CAMP? It was frightening to watch those children who were wearing war paint shouting "This means war!" They mean with the rest of us. At least that's how I took it. They are such adorable children too. Mosken, it's interesting to hear how you and your family view Americans. During WWII we did fight Fascism, what dismays me is feeling like we're possibly becoming Fascist now. Personally, I don't trust that my vote counts at all anymore either. I do vote though, just in case. It's easy enough because i do it through the mail now that I'm disabled. My wish for our country now is that we can get a President who gets us out of Iraq quickly and as painlessly as possible. I'd like to see the new Administration do some mending of our Foreign Relations. I'd also like to see us focus on our problems here at home, like homelessness, the Katrina Disaster, the crumbling infrastructure of small towns all across the USA, the Economy, Education and Health Care. That should be enough for us to deal with, as a country we don't need to be getting into the debate on Abortion, Religion or the personal lives of politicians. I wish we could take a lot of our brightest minds who are working so hard on trying to one day colonize Mars and work on our problems in our own country and then reach out to the world in a more positive way. fogggy Last Edited By: fogggyrl 03/21/08 14:23. Edited 2 times.
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InAlabama		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3715 03/21/08 13:27 Kudzu USA	Sunshine56 wrote: It did not make me laugh! :-) That is probably because you don't know that the KKK have become the clowns of hate. They have gone from being one of the most powerful groups in the U.S. -- especially the Southern U.S. -- to being a joke. Their membership is miniscule. And these days, when they hold one of their hate marches, crowds gather along the streets to jeer and make fun of them. (We had one right here in my own town earlier this year.) Plus, the idea of an Imperial Wizzard of the KKK endorsing a man who is half African for any political office sounds like the punchline to a joke. The KKK is supposed to be all about White Power. How does Barack Obama fit into that? Last Edited By: InAlabama 03/21/08 13:39. Edited 1 time.
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seashell65		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1300 03/21/08 16:01 Political reporter USA	Legend has it that the KKK used to meet on top of Stone Mountain, GA, which I could see from my front door and my high school as a teen. Which really frightened me, as they hate not just blacks, but jews, catholics and others and anyone who is "friends" or friendly towards said groups. Atlanta had become so very much an international and multicultural city that the KKK is rather miniscule in importance there now. Where I live now, in Alabama, I have heard so many conflicting stories about them. Some of the old timers praised them in the respect that the local group used to take wife-beaters and lazy butts who wouldn't support their families out and whip them, literally. This by far does not make up for the fact that they also were a violent group in other respects. Now I don't hear so much about them, but I have a whole section of my family who have no qualms about spouting all sorts of stupid nonsense. (I am currently estranged from this side, but do hear humorous stories from my mom) There for a while there the KKK and the Neo-Nazi's were gaining ground. But now they really don't have to join such groups, they find some of the really far, and I truly mean really far to the right evangelical christian churches to go to. And it really makes it sad for those who try to live as a christian, much less any religion, should. The whole term "christian" has become such a troubling label here in this country due to this far extreme. Having said this, and while things may still be bad here, I don't feel we are as reactionary as we were just a few years ago. If you opposed the war you were branded a traitor, in the least. Now so many have seen that it was a mistake that that isn't an issue, it's the whole how do we RESPONSIBLY get out. And religion, if you espouse differing views than the majority, than you are pretty much branded a loon. (crazy, weird) I find that it is astonishing that the generation that resisted the "norm" (the baby boomers) have become the staunchest conservatives and rigid thinkers. The flower children seem to have grown up and become sticks in the mud. I don't get it. They are the ones who had the most influence on my sensibilities growing up, and the open-minded abilities that they so ardently professed became so ingrained in me. And to see this generation, not all, but most, disavow what they once believed and fought for is discouraging. Sad.
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ponolops		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1430 03/21/08 17:06 Quasimodo England	Isn't it sad that religion has caused so much hate, so many wars and so much division within our societies? I am Church of England but would never dream of forcing it down anyones throats. I was disgusted to hear that when Bush got into office he insisted that all staff pray with him before each days business. They knew if they refused, they were out! I have friends who are atheist, Catholic, Hindu, Muslim and Plymouth Brethren. We all accept each other as we are and religion never comes into our conversations, except occasionally as a joke. Yes, we laugh at each other, with each other and love it! My Mum was ill for 12 years before she died and during the many times she went into hospital, she always gave her religion as C of E even though she was a staunch atheist. When I asked her why, she used to wink at me and say she was just keeping all options open! Why can't we all be like that? Penny
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seashell65		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1300 03/21/08 18:04 Political reporter USA	hey Penny, what's Plymouth Brethren? My blogs: Tea, Thyme and Cozies and Spiritual Wanderlust "When sleeping women wake, mountains move." - Chinese Proverb
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shadeaux63		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2592 03/22/08 01:01 USA	To turn to religion IS normal in times of crisis.However, the religion that has been the MOST vocal her in the US is a brand of Christianity called Evangelicalism.The Evangelicals seem to delight in using the bible to find reasons to hate.It really has very little to do with the teachings of Jesus.According to Evangelicals, if you aren't one fo them, you are no more than an animal, and deserve to die.And not just other religions, but homosexuals, liberals, foreigners, literally anyone who isn't JUST like them. There was a website I used to go to a lot where a person could see the kind of nonsense these guys were preaching. I stopped visiting this website when they showed a video of a preacher at one fo the mega-churches telling his congregation that the REAL bible was printed in English- not Hebrew,and that saying the true bible was originally in hebrew was a zionist lie.They are the ones who disavow science in any form they dont like,and come right out and say that ALL Democrats are "godless heathens" and can never be allowed to get back into power.This is the group that Bush aligned himself with, so since he's been in the White House, they truly believe that means that God wants THEM to be the true leaders of our country.They hold regular camps, and retreats, where they continually drill into thier believers heads that if they don't "reclaim America for God" and get rid of all the "Godless heathens" that Gods wrath on this country will make 9/11 look like a picnic. THAT is the religion those of us who actually use our brains to think have a problem with- and a bigger problem watching them force religion as a campaign issue.
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fogggyrl		#21	[url]	[-]
Posts: 182 03/22/08 17:46 USA	That's what I see happening too Shadeaux. It was creepy when the Evangelical children in the Jesus Camp doc were praying in church to a life-sized cardboard picture of George Bush. Then again, as another reviewer wrote, he needs all the prayers he can get. I agree with that. Is McCain Evangelical too?

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American Elections of 2008

American Elections of 2008