Letter: sitting disability to the European disability forum/recieved an answer!!

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Sunshine56

Letter: sitting disability to the European disability forum/recieved an answer!!

Lead

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Posts: 42310

10/16/07 08:28

Mosken
ezOP Board Owner
Norway

Tags : sitting

I wrote this letter today to The European Disability Forum:

please join me in writing your own letter to;

EDF General contact details:

Tel: + 32 2 282.46.00

Fax: + 32 2 282.46.09

Email: secretariat@edf-feph.org

Address:

39-41, Rue du Commerce

1000 - Brussels

Belgium

Director October 12th 2007

Carlotta Besozzi

European disability forum

My name is Mosken xxx, and I am writing to you from Norway. I used to be a government lawyer in Norway, but am now disabled due to severe back problems. Because of extreme pain, I am unable to sit for more than a few minutes at a time, and am unable to walk for more than a couple of minutes, meaning that I spend my life lying down.

The Internet, however, has made it possible for me to join the world and use my skills again. Working from my bed, I have increasingly become an advocate for the disabled in Norway. The last six years I have been running an online support group for people with chronic pain .

According to the new regulation on the rights of air passengers with disabilities, it is illegal to refuse booking or boarding to a disabled person. The regulation's description of disabled people does however not seem to include passengers having sitting problems. At least this is a reasonable interpretation since the specific problems for persons with back problems are not addressed anywhere.

The EU commission seems to have overlooked that the most notable disabilities for people with back problems is a reduced ability to sit. A person with a sitting disability caused by excessive pain will be unable to sit for long periods of time, and will thus have a need to lie down.

I have personally been refused to fly because I am unable to sit for more than 5 minutes at a time. Even I am willing to pay for a bed seat on business class, so far no airlines let me travel if I am unable to sit for at least 40 minutes during take off, landing and turbulence. The airlines refuse people with sitting problems the right to travel by air on safety grounds.

Many people around the world are suffering from back problems today, and most of them have reduced ability to sit. The opportunities of air travel should be open to people suffering the disadvantage of reduced sitting ability, not only people with reduced mobility. As it is today, people with a sitting disability have no effective opportunities for air travel.

I know that The Back Pain Association in Norway would like to bring this to the attention of the EU commission. The rights of those with sitting disability seem so far to be an unrecognized disability problem in Europe.

I wonder whether the European disability forum is aware of this problem for people with reduced ability to sit? do you have any plans to include this group of disabled people in your work for awareness? And would you please inform the European commission about how people with sitting disability will be unable to fly in spite of the new regulations?

I hope to hear from you in the near future!

Kind regards,

Mosken xxxx

Last Edited By: Sunshine56 10/22/07 21:16. Edited 5 times.

Sunshine56

#1

[-]

Posts: 42310

10/16/07 08:31

Mosken
ezOP Board Owner
Norway

EDF staff:


Carlotta Besozzi Director	Javier Güemes Policy Officer	Maria Nyman Policy Officer	Janina Arsenjeva European Parliament and Policy Officer


Helena González-Sancho Bodero Communication and Press Officer	Valérie Asselberghs Information and Membership Officer	Muriel DaVia Finance Officer	Ann Vervaecke Events organizer

ponolops

#2

[-]

Posts: 1433

10/16/07 10:36

Quasimodo
England

Good on you Mosken!

Just a thought! Are any of those good people in the photos actuallly disabled themselves?

Sometimes it takes one of us to recognise and help another. Anyway, great letter!

Well, as you know, I've sent mine, so what about it non-sitters? Please join us in our quest for a bit of equality in this world. Write your own story and hopefully, someone, somewhere will listen and be our champion!

Penny

Sunshine56

#3

[-]

Posts: 42310

10/16/07 12:42

Mosken
ezOP Board Owner
Norway

I don't know, Penny. It often takes a healthy person to fight the battle also........... :-)

jillybromley

#4

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Posts: 2231

10/17/07 00:37

Jilly in UK

Hello Mosken and Penny

I will write a letter, too.

I can sit for short periods on memory foam, as long as I only sit on my left buttock. But I need to constantly be moving a bit because of muscle spasms and sciatic nerve. So to be confined in a seat for more than 5 minutes, like on an airplane is impossible for me. Lying is my most comfortable option.

So I will write too.

What a handsome bunch the EDF staff are!

jilly

amberlover13

#5

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Posts: 20365

10/18/07 01:17

Moderator
USA

Very good letter Mosken.....such a shame that the airline industry doesn't offer equal services for ALL people!

granny ja

#6

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Posts: 5504

10/18/07 03:00

Queen of Tea
USA

good work Mosken. I certainly hope you can make the diffrence. And soon be able to travel by air.

God bless

Sunshine56

#7

[-]

Posts: 42310

10/19/07 12:38

Mosken
ezOP Board Owner
Norway

Dear Mr Bergh,

Cc: Mr Christophe Dussart, Policy Officer, DG TREN, European Commission

Ms Ann Frye, chair of the European Civil Aviation Conference working group on persons with reduced mobility

Your e-mail was forwarded to me as the policy officer responsible for transport within the EDF.

I find your e-mail and questions very interesting and it is true that the situation of persons with backpain is new to me, but of course EDF wishes to include this aspect in our work as we are aiming at including all persons with disabilities in our work.

I was actively involved in the negotiations on the regulation 1107/2006, and although people with extreme back pain and their particular situation are not explicitly mentioned it is still covered under the regulation. In fact, all disabled persons and not only those with reduced mobility are covered under the regulation, including persons with sensory impairments, persons with and intellectual disability, mental health problem, chronic illness…
All persons with disabilities are protected from discrimination under this regulation and have the right to travel and to get the assistance they need.

However, as you know, in the Article 4 of the regulation there is the exception to transport of disabled people when there are justified safety reasons established by law. EDF was very much against this Article as we saw it as a potential loophole, causing unjustified discrimination of persons with disabilities.

It is difficult for me, not having sufficient expertise on safety, to judge whether it is absolutely indispensable that all passengers are seated during take-off and landing. But as far as I am aware there are sometimes passengers traveling on stretchers and are as a consequence lying down during the whole journey, so I cannot understand why your case should be different? It seems to me that it is unreasonable to deny you traveling just because you are unable to sit for longer periods.

I suggest you also get in contact with your national civil aviation authority to discuss this situation.

I copy the person responsible for the regulation 1107/2006 within the European Commission, Mr Christophe Dussart, into this e-mail. Maybe he has further comments to give you on your specific situation.
I wish you all the best.

Best regards,
Maria Nyman
Policy Officer
European Disability Forum
Forum Européen des personnes handicapées

39-41 rue du Commerce
BE - 1000 Bruxelles
maria.nyman@edf-feph.org
Tel: +32 (0)2 286 51 84
Fax: +32 (0)2 282 46 09

Last Edited By: Sunshine56 03/30/08 19:25. Edited 2 times.

ponolops

#8

[-]

Posts: 1433

10/19/07 15:10

Quasimodo
England

Good reply Mosken. Pity they had to change your sex, but if that's what it takes..................................!

Penny

inger lise ask

#9

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Posts: 722

10/19/07 16:27

Surrehue

oh Mr. Bergh... So happy that you got an answer...

Sunshine56

#10

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Posts: 42310

10/19/07 19:56

Mosken
ezOP Board Owner
Norway

My e-mail back to her:

Dear Maria Nyman,

Thank you so much for replying to me, forwarding my e-mail and enclosing the regulations!

I am aware of article 4 with the exception for "justified safety reasons established by law". Because of this exception the airlines are enabled to define safety reasons and can refuse people with sitting disability to travel by plane.

I have been actively working on being allowed to travel by airplane from Oslo to Los Angeles for the last three years. Practically no airline flying from Oslo offers people to travel on a stretcher anymore. For instance British airways generally refuses people to fly on a stretcher, no matter what you are willing to pay. Icelandair offers stretchers, but they are not flying where I want to travel.

I have been in touch with my national Authority on transport/the Government secretary of transport, on behalf of the Norwegian back pain organization. It takes a couple of years before the new regulations are implanted in our national legislation, but they admitted people with severe sitting disability would not be helped by the new regulations.

I would like enclose the link to my website about sitting disability: http://www.mosken.com/sittingdisability.html

Also see an article in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitting_disability

Again thank you so much for your interest!

Kind regards
(Mrs) Mosken Bergh

Sunshine56

#11

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Posts: 42310

10/19/07 19:57

Mosken
ezOP Board Owner
Norway

Her second reply to me:

Dear Ms Mosken,

Thank you for this interesting information.

Please note that the exception in Article 4 does not allow airlines to have their own policy on when persons with disabilities can be exempted from traveling. All decisions to not allow a disabled person to travel must be based on a LAW, and NOT internal airline policy.

You example of Icelandair allowing stretchers show that British airways is probably discriminating against you in an unjustified way. Next time you could ask them on what legislation they are basing their decision…

Best regards,
Maria Nyman
Policy Officer
European Disability Forum
Forum Européen des personnes handicapées
39-41 rue du Commerce
BE - 1000 Bruxelles
maria.nyman@edf-feph.org
Tel: +32 (0)2 286 51 84
Fax: +32 (0)2 282 46 09

Last Edited By: Sunshine56 04/25/08 17:14. Edited 1 time.

jillybromley

#12

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Posts: 2231

10/21/07 01:21

Jilly in UK

Hi Mosken

Well, it's very nice to know that they read the letters and emails and respond to them.

Interesting point about the Law over-riding an airline's own Policy.
It wouldn't suprise me at all if British Airway's discrimination is unlawful. There's a huge amount of confusion in Britain about European Law.

Your example of Icelandair allowing stretchers show that British airways is probably discriminating against you in an unjustified way. Next time you could ask them on what legislation they are basing their decision…

That sounds like a good idea. Maybe they are actually breaking the law by refusing.

I sent my letter by post, I haven't had a reply yet.

jilly

DIVA6

#13

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Posts: 7308

10/23/07 23:22

Friends Host
Lady of Blessings

well it sounds like a great start in any event...i recall viewing a newscast aysing a pt flew on stretcher but was accompanied by a nurse..yes=i remember now,it was Terri Schavo. [u & i disucussed it after i read her hubbys book]. that info has always given me hope that you will, someday,be able to travel via aircraft.

jillybromley

#14

[-]

Posts: 2231

10/28/07 16:32

Jilly in UK

Hello Mosken

When I saw that you had emailed to the EDF, rather than sent by post, I copied my letter into an email and sent it that way as well.

I've just received a reply to the email today. Here's my email and Maria Nyman's reply.

Sent: dimanche 21 octobre 2007 20:01
To: Maria Nyman
Subject: Sitting Disability and Air Travel

Maria Nyman

Policy Officer for Transport

European Disability Forum

Forum Européen des personnes handicapées

39-41 rue du Commerce

BE - 1000 Bruxelles

Belgium

21st October 2007

Dear Ms. Nyman

Subject: Sitting Disability and Air Travel

May I please draw your attention to the problem that an inability to sit for prolonged periods causes to a person with a sitting disability who wishes to use an Airline.

It seems that this particular problem is not addressed by many of the Airlines as a recognised disability and it does not seem possible to request lying arrangements on the aircraft. The Safety Regulations come into play here, and it seems that is the reason for the refusal.

I know that there are regulations that make it illegal to refuse booking or boarding to a disabled person, but sitting disability and the need to lie, does not seem to be covered by this category.

I wonder if it would be possible if there could be a Regulation that allowed a person with a severe back problem to be able to lie throughout the flight. I believe that people are transported by stretcher when they are ill for other reasons, so there must be facilities for this on the aircraft, that do not breach the Safety Regulations.

Perhaps it would require paying extra, but I think many people in my position would be willing to do this in order to be able to fly.

Thank you for the good work that you do in getting a fair deal for people with disabilities.

I just thought I would point out this one particular area, as I think there are a number of people in this same situation as me who are unable to fly because of severe back or sciatic nerve problems.

Thank you.

Sincerely

Jill ********
Location: UK

and here is Maria Nyman's email reply.

Re: Sitting Disability and Air Travel
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:14:37 +0100
From: "Maria Nyman" <maria.nyman@edf-feph.org>

Dear Jill,

Thank you very much for your e-mail and I fully agree with you that as a person with a sitting disability there must be solutions to travel by air without compromising safety.

I was actively involved in the negotiations on the regulation 1107/2006, and although people with extreme back pain and their particular situation are not explicitly mentioned it is still covered under the regulation. In fact, all disabled persons and not only those with reduced mobility are covered under the regulation, including persons with sensory impairments, persons with and intellectual disability, mental health problem, chronic illness…

All persons with disabilities are protected from discrimination under this regulation and have the right to travel and to get the assistance they need.

However, as you know, in the Article 4 of the regulation there is the exception to transport of disabled people when there are justified safety reasons established by law. EDF was very much against this Article as we saw it as a potential loophole, causing unjustified discrimination of persons with disabilities.

It is difficult for me, not having sufficient expertise on safety, to judge whether it is absolutely indispensable that all passengers are seated during take-off and landing. But as far as I am aware there are sometimes passengers traveling on stretchers and are as a consequence lying down during the whole journey, so I cannot understand why your case should be different? It seems to me that it is unreasonable to deny you traveling just because you are unable to sit for longer periods.

Please note that the exception in Article 4 does not allow airlines to have their own policy on when persons with disabilities can be exempted from traveling. All decisions to not allow a disabled person to travel must be based on a LAW, and NOT internal airline policy.

Next time you are being refused traveling you could ask the airline on what legislation they are basing their decision…

Best wishes,

Maria Nyman

Policy Officer

European Disability Forum

Forum Européen des personnes handicapées

39-41 rue du Commerce

BE - 1000 Bruxelles

maria.nyman@edf-feph.org

Tel: +32 (0)2 286 51 84

Fax: +32 (0)2 282 46 09

havheg

#15

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Posts: 4615

10/28/07 19:43

Moderator
Norway

Good work Mosken and Jill

ponolops

#16

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Posts: 1433

11/03/07 22:49

Quasimodo
England

Just thought I would let you know Mosken that I have sent a letter to our new Prime Minister, Gordon Brown and the Health Minister Alan Johnson.
I will email their neighbour's budgie if it will help!

At the very least I might rattle a few cages.

Penny

Sunshine56

#17

[-]

Posts: 42310

11/04/07 08:33

Mosken
ezOP Board Owner
Norway

Good work Penny!

I e-mailed this lady a few days ago

http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/bld.html?id=298

Allis61

#18

[-]

Administrator

Posts: 7071

11/05/07 23:49

Alice
Norway

Sunshine56

#19

[-]

Posts: 42310

01/25/08 15:20

Mosken
ezOP Board Owner
Norway

Jilly, I don't think I noticed you had got a reply the last time I was on this thread. I notice she is coming a bit more aware that the airlines can always blame the securities relations.

Last Edited By: Sunshine56 01/26/08 11:34. Edited 1 time.

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Letter: sitting disability to the European disability forum/recieved an answer!!

Letter: sitting disability to the European disability forum/recieved an answer!!